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Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 18th, 2012, 5:18 pm
by paintballdude05
As some of you may know I'm in the middle of a small rebuild project with my '02 Intrepid SXT. Along with all the engine work I need to do some suspension refresh too and that will come in the form of new struts all around along with a few other small items. One thing I have been noticing though with the car is that I've had an ever increasing "looseness" in the front end of the car. I've replaced many parts in the front suspension and I can't feel any play. After inspecting the subframe bushings I've come to the conclusion that it might be time to change them. There's only a small gap in between the bushings and the steel depending on if the car is on the ground or on jack stands but it's enough to be concerned. I started looking into what's out there for replacement and it looks like we're in better shape than the 1st gen guys. We can either buy OEM or the readily available aftermarket Dorman kit. However, it does get a little confusing past the two options.

If you were to look in the '02 Factory Parts book like I initially did you will see that the front bushings are clearly numbered and you can get a p/n. However, the rears are not numbered but are listed along with a few other subframe bushings. I tried deciphering it all but couldn't come to a final list that I'd order parts from. To add to the confusion, Chrysler has a different bushing sets for the LHS/Concorde Limited than all the other LH's. Also, depending what style(LHS or Regular) you get they have different bottom and top bushings from the front and back sets.

Now, when you look at the Dorman parts you will notice they sell only two different bushings(in one kit, top and bottom with a new bolt) and that does either the front or rear bushings according to the listing. Also, you will notice that they list the Chrysler p/n's at the kit replaces and those are that of the LHS type of bushings.

If you go back to the OEM parts book and look at the '03 version you will notice the diagram of the subframe is clearer and better annotated. Here you can get the proper p/n's for the rear subframe bushings both upper and lower. It kinda makes you wonder why they didn't do that in the earlier books right? Furthermore, you can now see that for the LHS the top bushings are the same while on the bottom they are different front and back. For the rest of the LH's the bottom bushings are the same while the top ones have different p/n's. If you go back to the Dorman kit it says you can use it front and back, left and right.

All this to say, I'm still confused as to why the factory used so many different subframe bushings styles for these cars yet they look to be interchangeable. One possibility is to give a softer ride to the LHS? Another is that many LHS's came with speed sensitive steering so they needed something different?

Bellow you can see a comparison that I made between the different combinations. Price are from rock auto and a discount online Mopar dealer. I'll most likely be going with the aftermarket Dormans.

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Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 18th, 2012, 5:35 pm
by Bill Putney
paintballdude05 wrote:...I'll most likely be going with the aftermarket Dormans...
Steph - You might want to read this thread: http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=230915

Nothing conclusive in that short discussion, but look them over real well before installing.

If it was me, I think I'd choose to spend $20 more for your "Hybrid OEM" option.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 18th, 2012, 5:43 pm
by paintballdude05
I'll have to look into that then. Maybe there really is a big enough difference between all the bushings.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 18th, 2012, 9:12 pm
by 02SilverSpecial
I would imagine that the bushings will be softer in the LHS/Concorde LTD so that less engine vibrations will be transmitted into the cabin. Maybe this is why the bushings tend to fail sooner in the LHS/Concorde LTD, as mine are VERY bad. I really need to replace mine, and was going to go with the Dormans, but after reading about them... I might have to wait longer and go with the OEM ones... Plus have them installed. I don't know if I could tackle this job, as I tried with my 1st Gen LHS and couldn't get it...

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 22nd, 2012, 10:12 am
by paintballdude05
02SilverSpecial wrote:I would imagine that the bushings will be softer in the LHS/Concorde LTD so that less engine vibrations will be transmitted into the cabin. Maybe this is why the bushings tend to fail sooner in the LHS/Concorde LTD, as mine are VERY bad. I really need to replace mine, and was going to go with the Dormans, but after reading about them... I might have to wait longer and go with the OEM ones... Plus have them installed. I don't know if I could tackle this job, as I tried with my 1st Gen LHS and couldn't get it...
That's what I'm starting to think also, that the LHS/Corde Limited bushings are softer than the other LH's.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 27th, 2012, 8:57 pm
by 02SilverSpecial
Replaced the rear bushings with Dorman units, and I think that I may need OEM rear lowers... The cradle still shifts making a creaking noise when turning/stopping or accelerating. I just torqued them to 130lb and will report back tomorrow if that fixed the problem.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:September 28th, 2012, 2:43 pm
by paintballdude05
02SilverSpecial wrote:Replaced the rear bushings with Dorman units, and I think that I may need OEM rear lowers... The cradle still shifts making a creaking noise when turning/stopping or accelerating. I just torqued them to 130lb and will report back tomorrow if that fixed the problem.
Interesting stuff, keep us posted for sure.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:December 1st, 2012, 11:29 am
by user97
Just replaced my subframe bushings with OEM ones on my 2000 LHS. How to found here was extremely helpful:

http://300mclub.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=28722

I ended up doing rear and front ones on each side at the same time. Supporting subframe with a jack, I removed both front and rear bolts and then slightly lowered the side of the subframe to allow for the upper ones to be slipped on. Then jacked it back up and re-installed.

I few comments:

1) Torque values specified in FSM are 80 ft/lb for the front bolts and 75 ft/lb for the rear ones. I added +5 ft/lb to the factory spec. I used new bolts, so the only old component left was the nut in the frame.

2) The bolts that came out had NO sign of thread locker of any kind. Factory new bolts also did not come with any thread lockers. Hence none was reinstalled.

3) Bushing materials -- I got bushings that are LHS specific ones. They are much softer than found on 300M, Concordes (other than 02+ limited models), and Intrepids.

Chrysler is clearly switching suppliers for the subframe bushings. I got a batch that had mix of old and new bushings. The older ones (ship date in 2010) are orange in color and are much less compressible than the Dorman ones. The newer ones (ship date 2012) are yellow in color (same as Dorman ones) are are as compressible as the Dorman ones. When torqued, it the difference in material is obvious -- the yellow ones get "flattened" about 30% more.

If I did this job again on an LHS, I would probably go with Dorman units for the front and OEM for the rear.

The car I did the work on is a southern vehicle with very little rust -- never seen salt (I do not drive it in winter). That said, the bolts came out with some difficulty. I am sure that on my "rusty" LHs this would have been a very painful job.

Another comment: I've always wondered how these bushings managed to contain lateral movement of the subframe. The design of the bushings seems to be geared towards cushioning up/down movement (not the front/back movement). The answer became obvious with bushings off -- there are very solid rubber bushings pressed into the subframe (similar in design to the pivot bushing of the control arms). This bushing controls lateral movement. They looked just fine and there don't seem to be any P/Ns listed for them. Probably they are considered to be a part of the subframe.

Here are the pics of the destroyed bushings:
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Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:December 1st, 2012, 8:53 pm
by paintballdude05
That's some good information there, especially on Chrysler changing suppliers.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:October 30th, 2013, 9:29 am
by menotu
Sorry my english is bad, an my question after reading is unacknowledged. I've an 300M and need new bottom front cradle bushings and screw, because mine are warped.
Are the numbers 14 and 16 the same? On picture I need 14 and 16. I know, the partnumbers are different, but when I search for parts, I only find Dorman 924013, which are only part 13,14 and 17...

what u think?

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:October 30th, 2013, 10:48 am
by paintballdude05
Not the same, but interchangeable for the most part. I will caution you though on buying the Dorman bushings. Many members have reported issues with them. In my opinion, go with the factory pieces.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:November 5th, 2013, 2:45 pm
by menotu
oh okay I understand. I asked my chrysler shop in germany. One Front side (1 bolt and 2 bushings) they want 173,- EUR!!!!

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:November 6th, 2013, 9:32 pm
by paintballdude05
Look at ordering the parts from a Online Discount Mopar Dealer.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:November 6th, 2013, 10:09 pm
by user97
A year has gone by from the time I did the job. Here is an update... Bushings stayed in place -- no noticeable subframe shifting -- HOWEVER, I checked the bolts with the torque wrench -- the bolts on the side where the old style bushings were within spec. The new "softer/yellow kind" got tightened by half a turn or so before they got to spec.


FYI

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:June 14th, 2022, 12:36 pm
by cin993
What's your experience replacing your cradle (subframe) bushings or isolators?

Mine are toast.

Were the Dorman 924-013 parts any good?

Have you tried the Polyurethane Engine Cradle Mounts/ Isolators?

Go OEM only?

Any issues removing the 4 bolts?

Thanks all.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:June 15th, 2022, 11:29 am
by Sneke_Eyez
The Concorde and LHS ones typically wear out. The 300M and Intrepid ones typically do not.
Bobby (Member SilverSpecial6.1) found the Dorman replacements he put on his Concorde Limited were not good and were worn within about a year and a half I believe.
So I would recommend replacing your OEM Concorde ones with OEM 300M ones.
No one to my knowledge has reported issues removing the bolts.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:June 16th, 2022, 9:34 pm
by In-trepid
I would use the polyurethane bushings from Polybushings.com. Kit part number PB1046. Johnny Spiva who runs Polybushings is a friend of the club and has been very helpful over the years. Give him a call at (541) 266-0890. I have never used the cradle bushings but have used a few sets of his rear sway bar bushings and other club members have used the strut insulators. Alway top quality!

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:June 18th, 2022, 9:31 am
by user97
X2 on all the points -- LHS/Concorde replacement ones are softer -- however, used OEM LHS bushings back in 2012 and they are still good -- I think either choice will last the life of the car at this point as long as they are OEM.

Bolts come out without issues -- on extremely rusted Intrepid they came out trouble free with an impact.

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:October 5th, 2022, 4:15 pm
by cin993
I ordered the set of cradle bushings from Polybushings and just got them. I actually spoke to JOhn before placing my order

The 4 smaller bushings are black, seem nice, firmer poly.

But little disappointed with the 4 larger, yellow, noticeably softer bushings-- they are "Dorman 924-013", this part number is stamped right on the bushing itself.
His website shows 4 yellow bushings and 4 black, but John didn't say they were Dorman.
Amazon has the set for $50 less, and Dorman includes new bolts; Polybushings set does not come w bolts

Anyone have similar experience?

Re: Subframe/Cradle Bushings

PostPosted:November 4th, 2022, 2:44 pm
by cin993
Got the Dorman cradle bushings (left side picture) to compare my Polybushings (right side)

They are in fact different. Dorman's are softer and seem to be made of a different material.

Looks like the poly company used a dorman bushing to make his polyurethane mold...so that's why the dorman part number is stamped on the polyurethane bushing. I do prefer the poly set so the dorman set were returned